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Jeff shares his progress on Camp NaNoWriMo and looks at the first quarter of sales data for Keeping Kyle. Jeff and Will talk with Daniel Willcocks about his new book Collaboration for Authors: A Complete Guide to Collaborating, Finding a Partner, and Accelerating Your Author Career. Daniel talks about his own collaborations, as well as what he learned from the authors he collected case studies from and the importance of the word “no.”

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Show Notes

Here are the things we talk about in this episode. Please note, these links include affiliate links for which we may make a small commission at no extra cost to you should you make a purchase.

Interview Transcript – Daniel Willcocks

Jeff: Daniel, welcome to the podcast. We’re so excited to have you here.

Dan: Thanks for having me, I’m excited to be here.

Jeff: So you’ve got a new book out, “Collaboration For Authors: A Complete Guide to Collaborating, Finding a Partner, and Accelerating Your Author Career.” We’ve collaborated once. And that was an interesting experience to say the least. This book I found really interesting, and we’ll get into this more as we go. But you’ve got a lot of case studies in here, which I think is really helpful for people to see different ways that different people do it. But I think my first question really is, what inspired you to write this book?

Dan: So I’ve collaborated pretty much since the start of my author journey. I mean, my first published work was a solo novella. And then pretty much from the beginning of 2016 up until pretty recently, most of my stuff that’s come out has been with other authors. And I think I’ve just had the benefit of being within the collaboration system and seeing the advantages that can come from working with other people. And I became a full time author around April 2019, in large part due to the collaborations in the networks with people that I’ve sort of built over the years, I think I’ve wanted to go into the nonfiction arena for a while. And I think that the collaboration market, although it’s not a huge market is one that’s underserved.

And there are a few sort of resources out there for people who maybe are looking at collaborating, I just wanted to give a sort of full experience from myself about the mindset that you need to collaborate, the fact that not everyone can or wants to collaborate, and just basically turning the table so that when you’re thinking about collaborating, you’re considering the other person because 9 times out of 10, it’s…that part’s never considered you never look at what value you’re adding to someone else’s experience, but also the intricacies of what’s going on in their life at the same time as well. So I just wanted to give around that experience. And I’ve worked alongside a lot of collaborators. I’m in circles with quite a few people who are quite big names in collaboration. And as you mentioned, there are case studies in there from them. So I thought it’s just a great way to bring that all together and just provide something that will be useful to anyone that’s thinking of going in and writing or working with someone else. And if I had known you guys earlier, I would have totally had you both in there as well.

Jeff: That’s very thoughtful. We’re not anywhere near the caliber of the folks you’ve got in this book.

Will: Yeah, there’s some really big names in the indie author space that you talk to about their experience when it came to collaboration. I’d like to know if there were any commonalities in their experiences when it came to collaboration.

Dan: Well, you asked a question I’ve not been asked yet. So I think there’s a commonality to put ego aside. I think the number one thing you need to do if you are looking at collaborating is understand that it’s not just gonna be your precious baby and not everything’s gonna go your way. There needs to be give and take. And I think that that’s one of the things that people struggle with the most is actually putting aside the expectations, your process, what you’ve done in the past, because when you’re going into a collaboration, you’re not just putting everything that you do with everything that your collaborator does, you’ve also got to look at the weaknesses and where you guys fall short, you got to look at who does what best and have that conversation. And I think one of the things that most of the other collaborators in the book mentioned was that it’s about the end product, it’s not about you gaining credit for that as much as creating something solid, something substantial that you’re both proud of, and trying to have that smooth transition along the way to make sure that you can get there with as little fallout, as little arguments or difficulties as possible.

And I think the other one as well was because, you know, that there are 1000 myths around the pros and cons of collaborating, one of them being that it speeds up your work and that if you collaborate, you can write 300 books in a year. And the fact is, obviously, in collaboration that’s not true, but the reality is that there is a lot of pre work that goes into collaboration before you even get down into the writing process. So if you’re working by yourself, you can’t just dive in, do your research, write the book and go. But as I stress in the book, the most important part of any collaboration being successful is that moment before you sign on the dotted line, whatever form that takes you make that agreement. So it’s a lot about putting in that work.

It doesn’t necessarily make you faster, maybe a few books down the line, once you’ve really started to hit your stride it can. But it’s not a magic formula for everyone. And I think that’s another commonality is you still need to put in the work to make the book come out at the end and for it all to be successful.

Will: Yeah, what I really liked about your book is it covers all phases of the process, the things to think about before you get started, when you’re deep into the collaboration, and then afterwards, some of the contractual things you have to think about when it comes to like money and your collaboration is essentially a marriage because you’re tied to this person forever now. You’ve written a book with them.

Dan: Literally, yes.

Will: Yeah. You cover an awful lot in the book, like what they can and cannot expect and the different types of collaboration. What is something else that you would like authors to know about the collaboration process? Maybe it’s something that they hadn’t considered before, either a pro or a con?

Dan: So I think the big thing that I’d love people to take away is because the book is called “Collaboration for Authors,” it’s not called co-writing for authors. Because I wanted to extend that umbrella term, because I’ve collaborated in all manner of different forms, whether it’s the podcast that I run, whether it’s some of the books that I’ve written, and some of the ways that I’ve collaborated with people as well. And I think I wanted to give a full overview of when people say, “Do you wanna collaborate with me?” It doesn’t necessarily mean let’s both stick our hands into a book and write together there are things like accountability partners is a form of collaboration, obviously, running a podcast, ghost writing, there are all these manner of different ways that you can work with other people. And I think that’s something that, for me is probably one of the greatest boosts that I’ve had over the years is that no matter what projects I’m working on, no matter how I’m configuring it.

There’s always been someone there that I can lean on that, who can support me. And I’ve never, touch with up until this point had to suffer with that hole, you’re a writer. So you are lonely syndrome, which I think a lot of people can get, it can feel very cumbersome, being a writer and just sitting at your desk by yourself, whether you’re already working full time, and just, you snatching those hours in the evening, I think collaboration can take 1000 different forms. And one that I do think is very powerful that a lot of people do benefit from is accountability. So just having someone that holds you to account that you say I’m gonna do X, they say I’m gonna do X, and you sort of pull each other on the way. So I think that’s probably one of the most powerful things that I’d like to get across in this book. And also the other thing, if, will count as a pro, and we’ll look at a con is that as I mentioned earlier on, it’s not for everyone, and that’s okay. And one thing I tried to stress in the book, it’s not going to tell you the reasons why you should be collaborating as you guys will know from reading through it. There are 1000 different mentions on the way where it’s like you might realize at this point that this isn’t for you, and that’s fine. And that’s totally okay. And, you might ask someone they say, “No,” and that’s totally fine for them.

Collaboration isn’t a thing you have to do. But it’s an option that I think is a lot of the time overlooked because people worry about how precious their words are, the process seems too complicated when really, it’s not once you know where you’re heading with it. So they’re the kind of bits I probably highlight there.

Jeff: That’s one of the things I really appreciated about the book is that you make it clear that saying no is okay. Whether it is you saying no to somebody else, or that somebody else saying no to you, that that’s important. And I think I’ve gotten stuck in this myself a few times where it’s like, “Oh, I better say yes or they’ll never ever ask again. And I won’t be invited back to the cool kids table.” But there are reasons to say no both for your own self-care, but your partner or your prospective partner may need to as well.

Dan: Yeah, as you mentioned earlier, it’s a relationship and whether you wanna compare that to a romantic relationship or not, it’s completely up to you. But I definitely make those distinctions. Because one thing that I’m very clear on in the book is you can lie your way into that agreement, you can get to a point where you’ve spoken with your potential collaborator, and you’ve gotten to a point where you’re going, “Okay, yes, this is how we’re gonna work, this is what I can commit to, and let’s sign, let’s make it happen, let’s push forward.” But the problem is, if you’re in any way, dishonest and not totally convinced of what you can commit to all this other stuff, you’ve not just laid all your cards bare, the minute you’ve signed that and you’ve started moving forward, it’s going to come out.

So when it comes to this kind of working relationship, anything that you hold back or anything that you’re not honest with just becomes a poison that sits inside of you and that shows and, if it’s your first collaboration with someone, that other person might not be able to read it straight away. But you’re gonna get to a point where you can’t lie anymore and that truth is going to have to come out. So honesty and just getting everything right in the beginning, because the beginning part before signing an agreement or making an agreement, it was originally meant to be a chapter or so in that book. And it just expanded to about half of the book because I realized how important those initial parts are. And yeah, it’s just if you’re not being honest, if you’re not just taking the steps to make sure that you’re putting everything on the table, I mean, it is hard to say no, don’t get me wrong, I totally get it.

The more you see it as if you’re going to lie, you’re going to get caught, which is gonna happen. No, is the right way forward. Because no, I think we’ve been taught over the years to think that’s a bad thing. But if no is right for you, then it’s going to be right for the person you’re saying no, to and there is a right way to say no, and there is a wrong way to say no, there are there are better ways than others. So just approach it with kindness, with empathy, just be honest. And I think nobody can really argue with you. If you say, “I can’t do this, because I’ve got family commitments, I can’t do this because I can’t match your pace.” Like I say, that’s stuffs all gonna catch up with you. Just be honest, and you’ll come out that cleaner both sides.

Jeff: Yeah, that’s an important point that you make because you’re actually doing the other person a favor if you said no, because you’ve been honest enough not to get yourself in a trap.

Dan: Yeah, definitely. Absolutely.

Jeff: How did you decide who to talk to for the book for your case studies?

Dan: So there are a few that I obviously from the names wanted to jump in and talk to and have on there anyway, because they’re fantastic. They add more credibility to the book itself. And to be fair, I think most of the people that I asked were people that I’ve been around within sort of quite close knit circles. So Holly and Angeline from the “Unstoppable Office Podcast,” I’ve been on their podcast, they’ve been on mine, and we sort of keep in touch and I love what they’re doing. And they offer this different perspective to say Michael Anderle or Craig Martell who obviously a massive indie collaborative success stories. And then there are people like Luke Condor who I personally worked with, Jay Thorne, I’ve worked with him. Obviously Zack’s in there because he’s Jay’s partner and Zack’s just a fantastic talent as well. So it was this mix of admittedly people I was quite connected to people that I just wanted to, number one, pick their brains and see if I could formalize why thought they’d say on paper.

But people who I also thought would offer that value to anyone who might pick it up. And I wanted to get a bit of a arrange a bit of escape of people, which is, I believe I managed to do with that try and get people from all different levels to contribute.

Jeff: And you really even put the anti one in there too, with the anonymous in the back.

Dan: Yes. So right at the back of the book, there is an essay very, very kindly donated from a writer friend of mine, who shall remain nameless because that’s his wish. But it literally it’s a full essay that he… I literally just said, “Oh, can you give me a paragraph or two some quotes,” because he informed me of a time when a collaboration didn’t go well. And he had these suspicions why and I also a paragraph or two and he wrote a full essay on the process, his view along the way, what may or not have gone wrong and how it sort of ended. And it’s a bit of a cautionary tale to anyone who’s reading through things, I can just make my way through and just make this happen. Because that essay is the reality is what I’ve seen happen a lot along the way. I think I’ve been pretty lucky on the way to work with some reliable really sort of like, incredibly kind people who have helped me along the way. But yeah, that that can happen too. And just laying out there. I felt like that was probably one of the things I’m proudest of adding into the book.

Jeff: I think it’s important for people to see I mean, right there, along with that permission for no is to really get a good view of here’s all the ways that can go really well. And then here’s this story that you really should pay attention to.

Dan: There’s no pressure to do any of this kind of stuff. If you’re interested in collaboration, I massively recommend checking out I mean, I will scream about collaboration from the rooftops, I absolutely love it. I’m constantly looking for like new people to collaborate with in different ways I can go with it. But if you’re curious about it, but you’re not sure and you think it’s not for you, fine. I mean, later on in the book, it goes into the different levels of obviously publishing, marketing, handling the finances, all of those different levels of those collaborations depending which way you go. And again, some people might love elements of that, some people might hate it, you can mix and match, find the person that complements your strengths, complement your weaknesses, your Yins, your Yang, and make it happen, but you don’t have to no one’s forcing you to buy this book. But buy it please.

Jeff: Were there some things in the case studies, either that surprised you or made you go, “Hmm, that’s interesting,” or even more so changed the way you looked at collaboration and how you might go forward?

Dan: I’ll probably say judging by the fact that I knew these people somewhat well, I don’t think there were any huge surprises in there. I think people were pretty much on point for why I assumed people like Nick Cole made it clear that they obviously get the benefits of collaboration, but it’s not for everyone and there is a certain point… And this is sort of…I’m implying this from his text, I’m not…I’m just paraphrasing, this is might not necessarily be what he meant. But in the beginning, sometimes it might be better to understand who you are as a writer first and go on that journey before you look at collaborating, rather than seeing it as that shortcut to success as people do.

But the one person that did surprise me, Katherine Hudson, who wrote a big part in there about ghost writing from all her background, and what she’s been doing, there was some really, really nice stuff in there, I think just about how successful you can make yourself from something like ghost writing, because I think a lot of people either shy away from ghost writing or they’re embarrassed, and I mean, I still ghost write as part of my work. And I think a lot of people can shy away from that and think that it’s something to be ashamed of, but it’s not. It’s a form of work, It’s a type of writing and she sort of comes out and she’s just very, very…she gave very, very elaborate answers, which I was very sort of happy and actually quite a few of the case studies. Well, the reason the case studies were put in there, they weren’t originally meant to be a part of the book. But some of the guys gave such expansive answers that I was like, I can’t not share this with people. There’s too much good stuff in there.

Jeff: Yeah, it’s really good meaty stuff.

Will: Now, you previously mentioned two names of some of the people that you’ve collaborated with, like Luke Condor, and Michael Anderle. You’ve worked with them on your couple of different series. What is the experience working with those particular creatives? And what are some of the differences between those collaborative experiences?

Dan: Oh, huge. So every collaboration is individual. Everyone is unique. I think even you guys can attest to even if you’re working with the same people, if you’re working on a different project, it’s gonna be a different experience. Because you can’t just set that slate clean and build the same tower out of the same Lego blocks, it’s gonna go all over the way and the colors are going to be different. Nice analogy, Daniel, thank you. So straight up, but no, so it’s totally different. So with both of those 2 examples, they’re very different in the sense that with Luke, we created a 50/50 share property of a series that is still in the works from book 3 in the minute. And with Michael Anderle he already had this establish universe. And he pulled me into write within a particular era. So I had all the rules of the world, the timelines, everything else, I got to create my own set of characters and dump into that world.

And then as long as sort of like, I abided by those rules, the sort of the things that the fans expected, then that was okay, and that was good. So there were big creative differences in one sense. With Luke, it was a case of we throw ideas around, we had a sort of bar that we wanted to reach, we had an idea of where we wanted to go with the story. And then we just throw it back and forth. So we tend to write in that, particularly on this series, the write series, he will write the first draft, we’ll plan it together, he’ll write the first draft, I’ll edit and look at the second draft backwards and forwards until we’re happy with it. We did at the same time do another series, which was a book that ended up being called “Lazarus” in which I took the first draft and that was kind of how we were paralleling and working our way back up. And I think with Luke it was a lot more intimate. It was a lot more we bounce ideas around, we were in touch a lot, sort of shaping the story as it went along. With Michael he’s a massively busy man, he’s running an indie fiction empire and has dozens of titles come out every month. And so he couldn’t be as actively involved as possible.

But at the same time in those early stages in terms of creating that, Michael got involved in the edit, a few other people as well as sort of helping shape that universe and they get you on track where, they check out the first of several thousand words, make sure that you’re okay, and then sort of set you running. And there’s processes and that is, it’s different people helping you get to the point where it’s publishable. So they were two massively different experiences. And then I collaborated in the “American Demon Hunter” series with Jay Thourne. And again, that was totally different because that was taking specific characters who have already been established in six, seven other books, and then adding my flavor to those specific characters. And I’ll be honest, I absolutely love Jay I have so much time for him. And I learned a lot from that project, I think that was probably the most challenging, just by the nature of you don’t have so much of that creative freedom in the story you do.

Obviously, you’re moving these characters, and people will expect certain things from those characters. So that was sort of a slightly different angle. But I think mostly the big differences come in, obviously process, how you choose to communicate with different styles of communication. Some people are very hands on and other people are happy just to let you do your thing. And then, catch up later and things like that. So every single one is a learning experience. And I think none of them are wrong. They’re are just what they are. They are just the collaborations that they were at the time.

Jeff: As a creative, how do you decide when you want to collaborate on something and when you wanna go solo, provided you’re the one that initiated the project in the first place?

Dan: Yeah, and provided I went solo writing the collaboration book. So I think it comes down to what you want to do at the end of the day. When me and Luke first started collaborating together, and that was the first sort of, big collaboration project, I mean, we’d started “The Other Stories” podcast, me, Luke and two other guys, Ben and Matt, back in 2016. And that was sort of short stories released every Monday. And we worked on that together as a team. And that’s fantastic, we still do that to this day. But that was the first big project. And I think, with Luke because I’ve been around him a lot, particularly with Hawk & Cleaver and getting “The Other Stories” podcast. I saw that we were very similarly minded. I saw that we wanted to write similar things, I saw that we both struggled a little bit with sort of time in terms of getting books out, particularly in the early days. And it just got into a conversation where it popped up maybe this could be a thing that we consider.

And we sat down and had a real chat where we said, “Should we make this happen? Is this something that we can manage together?” And we came to a point where we both said, “Yeah, this is good.” And “The Rot” and “Lazarus” and “The Secrets to the Remain,” all came out within a year from the first one publishing so over every year if you include obviously the writing and production work. But that was my chance to go from writing novellas into writing novels and having someone who, because Luke had written a few novels at a point. So I was almost using him as a mentor. At the same time that we were going through this process. Other collaborations they’ve been, not even opportunities, the presence of I’ve basically seen what I wanted, and I went for it. So with Jay and Michael, I used to run a podcast with Luke called “The Story Studio” back in 2016, 2017. And they were guests on the show, and I knew what they were doing. I knew that Jay had “American Demon Hunters,” I knew that Michael was bringing in other people in collaborating is “Kurtherian Gambit.” And after the conversations, I literally just reached out to them and said, “Look, if you’re looking for anyone else, I just want to put my name in the hat. If you don’t ask, the answer’ always no. Just, no pressure, let me know what you think.” And in both cases, they come back and they said, “Yes, granted,” Michael came back originally and said,” Yes, but we’ve got nothing for you at the minute.” And then came back to me a year later and said, “Okay, now we’ve got something for you.”

But I’ve always been one of these people that if I see something that I could potentially stand the shot at getting, then I might as well just ask, and it’s certainly served me really well. And particularly those two cases, they were things that Jay is post-apocalyptic but also horror and “American Demon Hunters” was something where I was definitely like, I’d love a chance to enter into that arena, learn from the other authors that play the part in that as well. And obviously, with Michael, he’s got this whole team behind him. So that was an experience there where I felt like I could benefit from those and I could also give something to them. So it was just a case of right place, right time and just me asking for the things that I wanted. When it comes to writing my own stuff, which I’m back in the saddle doing pretty much focusing on a serial that I’m working on at the minute. I just wanna get my hands dirty, and do a little bit of my own for a while because I have done a lot of collaborations over the past five years. And it’s not even so much an ego thing.

I think there’s just a part of the creative process that does go missing a little bit when you collaborate and you don’t quite have the freedom just to do the things that you want to do 100%. So with this book, that’s me basically putting myself on the page and going, here’s everything I’ve learned over the last half a decade, and we’re gonna make it happen.

Jeff: I think you’ve underlined with that answer too why part of the title of this book can be accelerating your author career. Because while at the same time earlier, you mentioned collaborating is not gonna necessarily mean more books. But the opportunity to expand even your network of people that you know who can influence your career, whether it is a no, or something that takes a year to manifest.

Dan: Yeah, I think I’ve somewhat… I’m trying to think how best to say this. Yeah, I think there’s definitely a case of things have boosted in that level. And I think people underestimate how willing indie authors are to say yes, I think there’s definitely people sort of shorting back in and shying away from opportunities. But I think if you present them in the right way, and if you just put yourself out there a little, it pays back dividends. One thing that I try and stress in that book is that it’s not a surefire, start a pistol, it’s gonna take you straight to the top. But if you do take the opportunities when they come and think about where you’re trying to go, it can accelerate you and I will add an addendum, which I’ve sort of mentioned a couple of times on a few different podcasts as well as, although in terms of getting my name out there and networking, everything else, I do have an incredible sort of network of people that I’m in touch with, and I love every single one of them. The beginning of my journey started in 2015 writing horror, I went into post-apocalyptic on my first collaboration. My second collaboration, it was sort of horror novel, novellas, and then with Michael it was sort of an apocalyptic, sci-fi, paranormal sort of blend of things.

So I’ve sort of suffered a little bit from genre hopping. So in terms of building a strong, solid audience base of people who are interested in Daniel Willcocks, that has suffered, but at the same time, I’ve got all these other benefits. And I’m now at a point where I don’t see that as a loss, I don’t see that regretfully because I’ve learned so much stuff that, how can I be not thankful for that. But now I’m in a position where I’ve been taking stuff I’ve learned, I’m putting it into my own fiction, and I’m building that base and just solidly looking forward. So it’s got its pros and cons, but it can help you.

Will: So before we wrap things up, I wanted to ask you about this first nonfiction title. And number one, why you decided to write it now? And I’m curious if this nonfiction is a kind of a different direction for you a way to explore different revenue streams?

Dan: Yeah, so I can give the honest answer that might make some people hate me, which is, so I yeah, I was planning to write this book for a while, it’s been percolating in my head. And in all honesty, I’ve heard from other authors that nonfiction provides a bit more of a consistent revenue stream because obviously, you’re answering someone’s problem as opposed to sort of stroking their entertainment bulb. And it’s a subject I wanted to come to, it’s one that I was thinking I’ll probably get to it this year. And then Coronavirus happened and the world locked down. And essentially what happened was my son, particularly in the early days when they said, “Anything from a cough, keep people quarantined for two weeks, blah, blah, blah.” My son coughed and ended up staying with his mother for two weeks, which meant that I had little to do apart from write. So within that two weeks, I literally pretty much just smashed out this book, and just got to the point where I was like, “I might as well make use of this time,” it distracts me from obviously missing him because I love my son. And it got to a point where at the end, I had a first draft. So that’s why it kind of came now.

In terms of diversifying revenue streams, there is definitely an element of that. I’ve done podcast before where the nonfiction based essentially because I’m speaking to authors about writing and particularly the minute I run the “Great Writers Share Podcast.” And I speak to these authors every day, I just think there’s a part of me that likes to give back. There’s a part of me that likes to share what I’ve learned. And I think I wouldn’t write a book unless I felt like I could add something of value. I don’t wanna just write a cheap piece of, write 10,000 words in an hour or, whatever. And that’s not a dig at anyone at all. But I think there is… and what I found from this book is I actually really, really enjoyed writing or the process of writing a nonfiction because I’ve worked in marketing for years. I’ve done copywriting, I’ve worked in publications, I’m familiar with sort of writing to audiences and things. And it gave me a chance to stretch those muscles a bit more and to have a bit more fun. And again, you guys will notice the book isn’t massively serious. I mean, there’s a lot…there’s a section in there, which obviously are quite important if you’re looking at finances and sharing all that kind of stuff.

But just the language and everything I use, it’s just me on the page. And I think I had fun exploring that and sort of just flexing those muscles of the poster signing my head on the table and trying to remember what color my freaking character’s eyes are. And going back 25 pages to try remember what I’d written last time realizing I hadn’t at all. So it was a different style of writing. And I think that variety is something that helps make keep the author enjoyment alive. See, I am planning a second book at the minute and looking at how I’m gonna make that happen, potentially, by the end of the year, but we’ll see what happens.

Jeff: Awesome.

Will: Fantastic. Something to definitely look forward to. So we highly recommend everyone check out “Collaborations for Authors.” If our listeners don’t already know, you are a fiction writer, you also are a podcaster. Tell people a little bit about the two podcasts that you host.

Dan: So I host “The Great Writer Share Podcast,” which is basically anything from 45 minutes to an hour where I sit down with some of the kindest and most hardest working writers around today. And excuse me, literally, I’m repeating the intro spiel. But the point of this podcast is I wanted to try and find a bit of a different angle from some of the other interview podcasts. And what I really try and hone in on is the mindset, the journey, the struggles, and how people can pick themselves up out of the dark pits to keep on writing, because obviously, the unifying theme there is that everyone is a writer and for 1000 people that is hard. So I try and, pick that out and get a range of people from, first time authors to some of the big hitters. And it’s a lot of fun. So and also “The Next Level Author Podcast” with the one and only Sasha Black. And that’s a sort of shorter form half an hour podcast, where each week we take interns to ask each other a question. And the whole premise of that show is that we’re both very, very similar points in our author career. And we’re looking at how we can reach out next level together and just hold each other to account, collaborating to make it happen. So check those out.

Will: Yeah, definitely. Those shows are amazing. We highly recommend both. If any of our listeners are interested in finding more out about your fiction, where can they find you?

Dan: Yeah, just head over to, and pretty much everything’s on there. So check that out.

Jeff: Cool, fantastic. Thank you, Daniel.

Dan: Thank you so much. This has been really fun.