Episode 466 – M.A. Wardell and A.J. Truman Take Us to “Marshmallow Mountain”

Nov 4, 2024

Jeff & Will kick off the show by celebrating the podcast’s ninth anniversary!

They also recommend the movie musical Glitter and Doom. Jeff reviews I’ll Have What He’s Having by Adib Khorram and Marshmallow Mountain by M.A. Wardell and A.J. Truman.

M.A. (aka Matt) and A.J. talk to Jeff about their first time collaboration for Marshmallow Mountain. They discuss how they met and how online friendship turned into becoming co-writers. Matt and A.J. share the inspirations for Marsh and Data, how their writing styles for humor, emotions, and spiciness blended together, and how they went from writing a standalone book to writing a series.

Look for the next episode of Big Gay Fiction Podcast on Monday, November 18.

Remember, you can listen and follow the podcast anytime on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube and audio file download.



Big Gay Fiction Podcast is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. Find many more outstanding podcasts at frolic.media/podcasts!

Show Notes

Here are the things we talk about in this episode. Please note, these links include affiliate links for which we may make a small commission at no extra cost to you should you make a purchase. These links are current at the time the episode premieres, however links are subject to change.

Transcript 

This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast.

Intro

Jeff: Coming up on this episode, we’re visiting “Marshmallow Mountain” with M.A. Wardell and A.J. Truman.

Will: Welcome to episode 466 of the Big Gay Fiction Podcast, the show for avid readers and passionate fans of queer romance fiction. I’m Will, and with me here, as always, is my co-host and husband, Jeff.

Jeff: Hello, Rainbow Romance Reader. It is great to have you here for another episode of the show.

And as always, this podcast is brought to you in part by our remarkable community on Patreon. If you’d like more information about what we offer to patrons, including the opportunity to ask questions to our guests, go over to patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast.

Big Gay Fiction Podcast Anniversary

Will: Now, I think it’s worth mentioning that this isn’t just any episode. This one marks the show’s ninth anniversary. It was on November 2nd, 2015 that the first four episodes of the Big Gay Fiction Podcast debuted.

Jeff: And what an amazing nine years it’s been too. Since we started back in 2015, we’ve produced more than 500 episodes. Now it’s true that this one is numbered 466, but there are many episodes in our backlist that don’t have numbers, such as some of the book club episodes, our 2020 Pride Month programming, and 2021’s Big Gay Fiction Fest Holiday Edition. Not to mention bonus episodes that we created for our Patreon community. It’s really difficult to get an exact number for all of it, but it is more than 500 episodes.

Will: We’ve also welcomed more than 350 guests to the show. Of course many of those guests were authors, but we’ve also had narrators and filmmakers, artists, dancers and bookstore owners, journalists, podcasters, reviewers, and queer activists.

And who has been on the show the most you may remember recently that TJ Klune made his 10th appearance on the show earlier this year. And narrator Joel Leslie was also here a few episodes back, making his eighth appearance.

Jeff: And out of all these episodes, which have been the most popular? Well, here’s the top five. Number five is TJ Klune and his appearance in episode 328 from August of 2021 when he was here talking about “Flash Fire” and “Under the Whispering Door.” Number four is Alice Oseman when she was here at episode 420 talking about “Solitaire” and “Heartstopper.” For number three, we talked hockey romance with Rachel Reid in episode 329, also from August of 21. Something about August of 21 was a thing for us back there.

Will: It was a magical time.

Jeff: TJ’s back on the list for the number two slot when he talked about “The House in the Cerulean Sea” in episode 232 for March of 2020. And the number one episode ever, Casey McQuiston from episode 187 when they were here to talk about “Red, White, and Royal Blue,” just as that book hit the stores in May of 2019.

Will: Now, a few other notable moments we’ve had since our inception include making Oprah’s list of 26 of the best book podcasts to listen to when you’re not reading. Making it onto Good Morning America’s virtual pride roundup in June of 2020 as they mentioned our batch of episodes to help celebrate Pride in the midst of the pandemic. And also, just a couple of weeks ago, we sent out the 100th edition of our newsletter, the Rainbow Romance Reader Report.

Jeff: And we want to thank all of you, whether you’ve been here with us since the beginning, just joined us for the first time in this episode, or anywhere in between, for being here with us as we spotlight queer romance and queer storytelling. And a very special thanks to our Patreon community who helped make all this possible, especially helping us make transcripts for the episodes. We started our Patreon in January of 2017, and I would like to take just a moment to recognize the community members who’ve been here with us since then, RegencyFan93, Laura, David, and George. Thank you for being with us for 83 consecutive months. That’s just wow.

Viewing Recommendation: Glitter and Doom

Will: So now that we’ve tooted our own horn for a bit, let’s get down to business and let’s talk about some of the books and movies that we’ve been enjoying recently.

And I’m really excited to tell you about a recent movie Jeff and I watched. It’s called “Glitter and Doom.” It’s a magical little indie musical featuring the songs of the Indigo Girls. And based on that title, I bet you didn’t expect me to say that, did you?

Jeff: I couldn’t believe it when you put the movie in front of me for the trailer.

Will: So the movie is about two young guys, the title, essentially describing our main characters. One is a rich kid who likes to party and has decided that his calling in life is to be a circus clown. The other is a struggling musician whose songs are just a little too angsty for anyone to truly be interested in. They meet one night at a club, kicking off a summer romance filled with wonderful montages and camping trips where they bear their souls to one another all to the tune of various songs from the Indigo Girls catalog. A lot of the dialogue is song lyrics as well, which in addition to the colorful visuals give this movie a dreamy, magical quality, and it’s just so charming and quirky and unique.

The movie was directed by Tom Gustafson, who many years ago made another queer musical, “Were The World Mine,” which is about a prep school production of “A Midsummer Night’s Dream,” where the love lives of the boys get just as magically messy as the Shakespearean characters they’re playing. Both movies share, I’d say, a similar DNA, magical realism mixed with queer romance and indie music. That should kind of give you an idea if this movie would be something you’re into.

In “Glitter and Doom” our lovers must figure out what exactly their relationship means as one of them prepares to leave and go to circus school in Paris. Now, honestly, the plot isn’t the most important thing. It’s really about the music and the vibes, and the great performances by the two leads, Alex Diaz and Alan Cammish. Both have amazing voices and have wonderful chemistry together.

Each of their mothers are also part of the story, and they’re played by Ming-Na Wen and Missi Pyle, whose name you might not recognize, but she’s one of those character actors who’s been in absolutely everything and whose face you will probably recognize. We saw her live in an off-Broadway show a long, long time ago, and she is just so damn talented. She’s terrific in this movie and she deserves to be a huge star, frankly.

Jeff: I didn’t know what to expect when you put this in front of me, but just watching the trailer, I’m like, yeah, we need to watch that and we need to watch it right now. You hit it so perfectly. It’s just magical and it’s dreamy and the songs are so good. Like I haven’t listened to Indigo Girls in a long time. It’s not that I’m not a fan, but it’s just not in my regular list. But I’ve immediately gone and bought the soundtrack for this movie and have played it a couple times since we watched it because the music is so good and these guys sing it so well. It’s just absolutely amazing.

I’m glad you highlighted Missi Pyle because not only is she a great performer in this film, but she gets to sing which she doesn’t always get to do in the movies that she’s in. But she got a couple killer song moments in here too, which I was really thrilled about. And oh boy, this movie is loaded with cameos from people, including the Indigo Girls, who do have a bit of the storyline going on in here too. I loved every single moment of this. I suspect I’ll be watching it again soon because I just loved it so darn much.

Will: Yeah, the whole movie, it’s magical from start to finish. It is like a colorful, extended indie music video. It’s vibey and romantic, and we think it’s something genuinely worth searching out. You can find “Glitter and Doom” on various streaming platforms. We watched it on Amazon Prime Video.

Book Recommendation: I’ll Have What He’s Having by Adib Khorram

Jeff: And now I’m gonna take care of the book side of things as I have a couple books to tell you about as well.

First up, I wanna tell you about “I’ll Have What He’s Having,” which is the latest from Adib Khorram and it’s actually his first adult romance after writing many YA books including “The Breakup Lists,” which he was actually on the show back in episode 452 talking to us about, and where he also gave us a little preview of “I’ll Have What He’s Having.”

I really enjoyed this book. I have to tell you, it ended up really delighting me in this romance between Farzan and David. Poor Farzan, he just honestly a little bit of a mess. His love life is not good. He’s been through a few failed relationships here and there. He’s unsatisfied with his job prospects. He’s currently a substitute teacher, but of course that’s not really paying a lot of money, and it doesn’t offer a lot of stability. He’s been kind of drifting a little bit with his job prospects anyway. One night he ends up going to a wine bar that he’s been wanting to try and as he’s coming in to get the seat he’s having a hard time with the loudness of the restaurant he gives up having the host try to understand that he’s saying Farzan , and he gives what he calls his white person name as Frank Allen. Now it turns out that Frank Allen happens to be one of the most influential food critics in Kansas City. And of course, once that name is given, it sets a flurry in the wine bar because it’s a relatively new business trying to make sure he has the best night.

And it’s David who really starts to make sure that Farzan’s being taken care of cause David is the sommelier, so he wants to make sure that Frank has a great evening and really gets to see the wine bar at its best. So we start off with a little bit of miscommunication here on who’s who. They get super cute and super flirty and it’s really awesome. And as you might expect, you know, they do kind of end up getting together at the end of the evening and going off and having a little bit of a fling, which is fun. And they’re flirty and they get along. Their chemistry is off the charts from the very beginning. It really just crackled right off the page and I was so there for it.

But you see we do have this miscommunication that’s already happened, which I have to say I was very pleased and this isn’t much of a spoiler because of how early it happens. They cleared that up relatively quickly so that doesn’t become the thing that’s hanging over them for the entire book, that eventually it’s gonna have to come out that Farzan is not who David thinks he is. So it was great to get that out the way and I appreciate that Adib did that. But then as they start to come together as David and Farzan, there’s a lot going on that they have to navigate.

David’s actually on a short time clock. He’s working on his master sommelier. certification and when he gets that, he plans to go to LA or to some other bigger market to really stake his claim to fame and fortune. Whereas Farzan honestly doesn’t know what he’s gonna do. He gets his chance though when he finds out that his parents who run another restaurant in Kansas City are gonna retire and they have their eye on selling the restaurant because the rest of their children are actually in other already established careers. Farzan, however, loves to cook, loves the restaurant and wants to make the restaurant work. But he’s terrified because he’s never done anything like that and he’s really worried that he’s gonna mess up his family’s legacy if he takes it over.

How these two end up helping each other is so amazing. Farzan helps David with studying for his big test. David helps Farzan understand, you know, what he kind of needs to do to able to take over the business and helps him navigate some of that stuff because he’s got experience in running restaurants. How these two really just support each other, and try to help each other, and make each other’s lives better even while there’s kind of that background thing of that david is going to leave at some point, which of course we all know this is a romance, so that’s really not going to happen. They just have to figure that out amongst themselves. And like I said, their chemistry is so good for a while they try to pretend like they’re doing a friends with benefits thing as they help each other out with their respective life tasks, but it’s so clear to the reader and to everyone around them that is simply not really the case, that they’re actually developing the feels for each other.

I really love how Adib navigated with these two characters, you know, getting them to their HEA. It was so ridiculously satisfying. It is been a really great year reading Adib books. I loved “The Breakup Lists” back in the spring. Now we’ve got, “I’ll Have What He’s Having” here in the fall. I highly recommend you pick up both books if you don’t have them already. I think you will really just absolutely adore “I’ll Have What He’s Having” because it is a really excellent romance focused on two people who just have to get out of their own way essentially to be able to come together for a really beautiful HEA.

Book Recommendation: Marshmallow Mountain by M.A. Wardell & A.J. Truman

And of course I have to talk a little bit about the book that we’re about to hear about in the interview. “Marshmallow Mountain” by M.A. Wardell and A.J. Truman was really such a treat. Now I’ve loved A.J.’s writing and his solo work. I’ve loved M.A.’s work and their solo work, but bringing these two together was just really the match made in heaven.

Their particular writing styles of humor and warmth and what M.A. Wardell, or Matt, brings into a book for the spicy level worked so well here. And this is one of the most forced proximity books… It’s essentially the forced-iest forced proximity book ever because they really spend the majority of the book snowed in, in this little cabin.

So what we’ve got here is Marshall and Marshall, or as they’re nicknamed Marsh and Data coming back to a cabin that they bought years ago, they need to pack it up and get ready to sell it because these two have broken up. And so they’ve come up for the weekend to clean it out and be able to sell it. But of course there’s a big snowstorm that happens and they end up stuck up here in the cabin. This small cabin, they can’t really get away from each other in the cabin. And there’s so much just delicious friction between them as they arrive here for the weekend.

In a lot of ways the breakup kind of came outta nowhere for Data. And we unpack over the course of the weekend exactly how they got to where they are in terms of having broken up. But really also rediscovering all the ways that they were so good together. You put together the second chance romance of this story, plus that forced proximity and it ticked so many boxes for me.

I love it when nice guys are sitting on the page talking, you know, that’s long documented in the history of the show, and that’s essentially what this book is, is these two guys talking a lot, figuring out where they went wrong, figuring out more importantly the places that they were so right for each other. It’s really wonderful watching these two come back together through the course of the story. And the way that even in the early parts of the book where there is all the friction that they do these little things that show a deep down caring for each other that they just haven’t lost.

AJ and Matt do such a wonderful job of this book. I can’t stress that enough. It was really a delight to read. I’m so glad, as you’ll hear in the interview, that this is not a one-off book for them, that there’s actually a series here now that will be continuing because the mix that these two have of the various components that they each bring to the writing is so good. And of course, few people do spice as well as Matt does. And the chemistry and the spice factor between these two is so amazing. And at the same time, some of the very tender moments as they’re rediscovering the things in this cabin that they’ve accumulated over their history together and the things that those mean to them, hearing them talk about that and reliving some of those moments was the tenderest of tender. This book is so good as it pulls all the emotional strings. I really enjoyed it so much.

And now let’s just get into the interview with Matt and AJ and you’re gonna hear so much more about this amazing book. These guys have been on the show before Matt was here last year in episode 441, talking about his “Teachers in Love” series, specifically “Mistletoe and Mishigas” for last year’s holiday season. And A.J. was here way back in August of 2016, episode 46. Within the first year of the show he was here.

Will: Ooh, that’s an ancient callback, isn’t it?

Jeff: An OG. And we were discussing his “Browerton University” series back then. If you’ve heard those interviews, you know, these two are very entertaining and putting them together was absolutely a blast. I almost didn’t need to talk at all cause they could just handle the whole thing themselves. We’re gonna find out how they came together to collaborate, what it was like to write “Marshmallow Mountain,” and we’re gonna get some hints about the next book in the series too.

M.A. Wardell and A.J. Truman Interview

Jeff: A.J. and Matt, welcome to the podcast. It’s so great to have you both back and here together. I think this is gonna be such a fun conversation.

A.J.: Yeah, thanks for having us.

Matt: Yeah.

Jeff: We have to talk about “Marshmallow Mountain.” I absolutely devoured that book. Loved it to pieces. But before we get there talking about that, I’d like to know what brought you two together to co-write. How did that get to happen?

A.J.: I guess I’ll start since I probably initiated the relationship. So, Riley Hart posted about me on her social media. At the time was doing, like an own voices author showcase. So she showcased me and that’s how Matt found out about me. And then I don’t… maybe he started following me or maybe… I forget. But somehow that got you on my radar. So then like I saw you, I was like, oh, it’s another guy writing gay romance.

Matt: Another cute guy. A cute guy.

A.J.: Another cute guy. Another Jewish looking guy like myself, writing gay romance. Oh, interesting. So I, as the kids say, I slid into your DMs and it just went from there. And then we just started talking and chatting. We had some Zooms just chatting. And then you were like, okay, so here’s the plan. I want us to both leave our husbands, become the next Christina Lauren, run away together and write lots of books.

Matt: I forgot I said that, but I did, I totally did say that. Even to the point where I was thinking of what would our ship name be… what would our co… I can’t remember what we came up with, but yeah I did say that. Oh my gosh, I’m so embarrassed. I totally said that.

P.S., I was kidding, okay. I was kidding.

A.J.: Yeah, note to listeners, we did not leave our husbands.

Matt: But spoiler alert, I did fall a little bit in love with A.J. during writing the book. So anyway, yes, he slid into my DMs and was very nice to me and said nice things. When you’re writing, it’s very solo. You’re just kind of on your own and it’s hard to connect with other people. You kind of do on social media, but it’s not really the same.

And so we started chatting and then I think it was me that just said, can we just get on a Zoom and talk about… It started with us talking about a lot of business things. We were talking about covers. And I don’t remember, I don’t remember everything. He probably does because he remembers that I said that Christina Lauren thing. And then, cause what you asked was like, why don’t we write a book together?

And so A.J. has written plus size characters before in his books. And I had written one book that has a plus size character. And we were talking about that. And we were talking about the representation and, how all that. And I think it was me, but A.J. will correct me cause he always does if I’m wrong. I think I said, oh my gosh. Why isn’t there a book where both main characters are plus size? Because it’s typically one. In both the books that we’ve written, you’ve got like a bigger guy and then a not bigger guy.

I was like, why can’t they both be big? Like, why can’t we have two teddy bears like doing it? And then one of us said, we should write that book. And I can’t remember if it was me or him. I think I say it was me when I tell the story about it. Now that A.J.’s here, maybe I’m wrong.

A.J.: I think you did make that initial push.

Matt: Okay. And A.J. was like, I’m not writing a book with you. He didn’t… he didn’t want to. You didn’t at first.

A.J.: Yeah, it’s true. Well, the thing is, I think we’ve all heard stories of authors saying oh, let’s co-write, or let’s do… I think the popular thing right now is doing a series of… eight authors do a connected series. And I just heard a lot of horror stories about that not working out between authors.

So I’m always a little hesitant because I only have so much time to write so many books. So I’m like, well, I’m afraid of going down that path with Matt. What if it doesn’t work out? Then we’ve spent all this time together working on this book that doesn’t come to fruition. Then we’ve lost all that time.

So I was definitely nervous as is typical for me. But then the more we started to… We kept talking and talking about maybe what it would be like. I had this idea for a book about, oh, what if there’s two ex-boyfriends who have to… like they co-own a house or a cabin. They have to sell it since their relationship is over. And then it’s from that nugget, it just grew. And I remember one thing that we did joke… that we did talk about, that we did not wind up in the book is, we were joking like, oh, we should do a Hanukkah set story. It’s like the story of Hanukkah

Matt: I forgot about that.

A.J.: Yeah. And the story of Hanukkah, for all the Gentiles out there, there’s only enough oil to last for one night of Hanukkah. But the miracle is that the oil lasts to light the menorah for eight nights. That’s what we’re celebrating. I’m like, what if these guys only have enough lube for one session of intercourse, but surprise, they have enough to last for eight sessions of intercourse.

And so we just kinda… we just laughed about that. And then from there I’m like, okay, let’s give this shot. And just getting to know Matt more and reading his books, I was like, well, he’s obviously a really good writer, so I was like, yeah, let’s do this. And the rest is history. The rest is marshmallows.

Jeff: How was the collaboration? Because even once you decide to do it, there’s do your processes mesh together? Do the writing styles end up and mesh together? Like, how was that for you? Because this is, for both of you, the first time of co-writing.

A.J.: Yeah.

Matt: So A.J. and I are like, we have become really good friends, but we’re different. I always joke he’s the grumpy and I’m the sunshine. He’s… I always forget with “The Odd Couple,” which one is the uptight one? Felix? I always get them confused. I never really saw it, but, I know of it. So he’s like the Felix and I’m the Oscar if that’s… So we’re like kind of opposite.

So as we started doing it, there was definitely the first week or two was a little… I won’t say bumpy. Like it wasn’t like horrible or anything like that. But what I realized for me, and I think for us, writing a book with someone is very intimate. You’re letting somebody into part of your process that most people never see.

I mean, even when most authors write a book, even if they have alpha readers and beta readers, that doesn’t happen for most people sometimes. I’ve seen some authors say that they have people reading chapters as they write them, but I’ve never done that. And I don’t think most authors do that, but that’s what we had to do.

We had to read each other’s writing as we were writing it. And this is so… So I think A.J. did this on purpose, but he’ll probably deny it. When we set up the story and everything, he basically made me go first. So I had to write first. So I wrote my chapter and then I sent it.

I didn’t send him… we were using a Google doc. So I said to him, okay, I’m done. And then I was waiting and also wondering if it was any good or what he was gonna think of it. It was like going on a date. Oh my gosh, is he gonna like me? It was that kind of a thing.

And then, okay, I’m being… I’m gonna be like… I’m gonna pull back the curtain so people really know. And then A.J., because he’s A.J., was giving me line edits and comments and feedback and I was clutching my pearls. I remember saying to my husband, I was like he’s giving me feedback. And my husband, who is not a writer or doesn’t know that much about it, he was like, well, aren’t you supposed to get feedback? I was like, not like this. He’s being critical.

And then I remember… this is me being a little bit of a baby. So then he wrote his chapter and I was like, oh, you want feedback? You wanna give feedback? I’ll give you feedback. And then I realized, like, oh, this, is how you have to do it. You have to do that. You have to give each other feedback. You have to be honest and not be afraid of hurting someone’s feelings and things like that. And A.J. is not afraid of hurting my feelings.

A.J.: I am direct.

Matt: He’s direct.

A.J.: I’ll say that.

Matt: But I think that it turned out that we were actually a really good fit because I’m not like that. `I’m much more laid back, go with the flow, kumbaya, let’s all make love and be friends. And so if we were both like that, it probably would’ve been a hot mess. So it was good to have A.J. who was like… he kept me in line and also in a good way. He was the dom.

A.J.: Yeah. I’ll say, like all first times, it was a little painful, but ultimately pleasurable. And I mean, everything Matt said is right. And I’ll just say I think the biggest challenge for me is that I’ve written a bunch of books before. So I’ve been writing for a number of years, so I had very much a process down. There’s just a huge learning experience for me to work with someone else, to not go through my typical process and to do it with someone else.

It was a challenge for me. But like a really good learning experience as well. And I think just me learning, as we were reading the books. At first I was like, oh, like something kind of feels off from like my regular books. But then I realized, oh, this is not an A.J. Truman book. This is an A.J. Truman and Matt Wardell book. And that’s where the differences come in, in a good way. There’s a lot that’s in this book that I might not have thought to write in one of my books and vice versa. And I think just learning to ease up a little bit on the control and learning to work with someone. I think it turned out well. It was a good experience.

We’ve talked about writing more books in the future. So I mean, overall I think it was a great experience. Like I said, a good learning experience for me. Matt, to his credit, is just a patient sweetheart. There were times when… There was one time when he wrote a chapter and then I said, oh, I just have a few notes to make and I completely rewrote it from scratch. And he was like, what the heck did you do? And I was like, oh, I can’t do that. I went too far. And so as the book went on, I realized okay, I like what he’s bringing to this. These are things I wouldn’t have thought to bring. And so really just learning to work with someone to make a different kind of book. So all in all good times.

Jeff: That is a great story.

Matt: It is like dating. I mean, it’s like dating. It’s like you’re kind of getting to know the other person and how they work and, in a way. But it was also really enjoyable. I mean, A.J.’s… We’re not supposed to say bad words?

Jeff: You could say all the bad words you want. Go ahead.

Matt: Okay. A.J.’s fucking hilarious, right? People know that. If they’ve read his books, they know that. And so I was like to read his jokes before anyone. And also see his joke process, which is…Which we got to this point. I think at the beginning he probably wouldn’t have let me do this, but we got to the point where he would say a joke and I’d be like, that’s funny, but you could do better. And he would.

And I was like, oh my God. I felt like the puppeteer and he was my marionette. I was like, gimme another joke. Make it funnier. And he would and so it was really… I had a lot of fun doing. I mean, that’s what precipitated the idea of let’s make this a series. We didn’t plan a series, we just planned a book. And then as we were writing the book, we were having so much fun with the book, and the characters, and some of the side characters, and each other, and the process, were like, we should do more.

A.J.: And what was really fun for me too is knowing that someone was gonna be reading my chapter very soon after. So when I was writing I would think about, okay, I wanna make Matt laugh. I want him to have this reaction or that reaction. Knowing I had that person I was writing for it just made it so fun.

I was like, okay. there would be times when I’ve thought of like good lines and I would scribble them being, oh, Matt’s gonna find this line so hilarious. I cannot wait to put it in. And then of course he like… and what I love is when he would leave notes in the chapter aside from things to change or whatever, he’d be like, LOL or I cackled, which I loved.

Matt: A lot of cackling.

A.J.: Yeah, if I just get a cackle out of him, like that’s just what I was going for.

Matt: And then I was doing the same thing with the spice. I was like, okay, how much can I turn A.J. on? How much is he gonna just be like all over his husband? And then he would be, like, oh my God, this is so hot. Or whatever.

Jeff: How did it come to like with the plotting? Do your processes mesh up at how you decide to go forward or how did that come together? Because I know with co-authors we’ve talked to before, somebody’s a plotter, somebody’s a pantser, or somebody’s in an in-between state, and those can be some of the more difficult areas to get clicking correctly for a duo.

A.J.: So I think because Matt, you seem like you’re a… you do outline. But I think it takes you a while to kind of find what the story’s about. Whereas I think with me, like I said, having written books before, I kind of know, okay, these are the beats I wanna hit. And I do outlining, even though as I’ve gone on my outlines might get looser. I do have like certain ideas of what I wanna do in terms of plotting.

I really try to think about that, about how are we raising the stakes? How are we building the tension? How are we building to these big moments? So I think I kind of was task master with that, especially for… cause the big challenge with the book is that it’s just these two guys in a cabin for the whole middle of the book. So it’s just these two people and it’s okay, how can we… we don’t have side characters that we can really lean on. We don’t really have a lot of other locations that we can go to for this. So how can we keep building tension. Because it’s also second chance romance… so bringing some of their history, and dealing with some of the conflict as they kind of deal with stuff from their relationship. How can we keep that building?

So I tried to be mindful of that. When we would write, I went back and okay, in the next draft, like maybe let’s try to structure it this way. And I get Matt’s feedback and Matt was really good with pacing. He’s okay, like we’ve kind of been in this section a little bit. I think we need to get to the next point already. So I think he was really good about figuring out, how can we keep the story moving?

Matt: At one point I do remember, because this was, I think at the beginning, after just a few weeks, we were writing and writing. At one point A.J. sent me a message and he said our characters have gone off the rails, and they have taken their own… and they kind of had. We weren’t even thinking about the outline or the story. They were, just like, being. And so that was… but he was right. And so then we just kind of had to push them back to the story.

A.J.: Yeah, I think there were a few times, especially in the second half of the book, when we know where we want them to end up, but let’s take a quick brainstorming session and think about, okay, what are the next few chapters that can get them there. So by that point it was a few chapters at a time. And that happens with my own books as well, where characters kind of go off the rails and then just figure out how to bring them back.

Although I think what was funny that I do remember is we were writing, we were going through our chapters and Matt messages me a few times. He’s like, A.J., when are they gonna have sex? It’s just too long without a sex scene. I need to write a sex scene. Like, where are they gonna have sex.

Matt: I did say that. And he was like, not yet. He was like totally edging me. And I was like, oh, fuck. And then finally, when it was time, he was like, okay, now I want you to write the longest, most passionate, love making that you… and I was like… a relay race, and I was like, I got it like…

A.J.: He grabbed that baton. Did he ever.

Jeff: Oh my goodness. So now I guess we should tell people all about what this book is, if they have not picked it up yet. Tell everybody what “Marshmallow Mountain” is about cause we’ve been kind of teasing on it for a little bit.

A.J.: Okay. So “Marshmallow Mountain” is about these two ex-boyfriends. Both of them are named Marshall. In the book one is nicknamed Marsh, one is nicknamed Data. Marsh is like this kind of loose, sarcastic comedian, standup comedian. Data is this very up uptight, analytical, very number focused, accountant.

They broke up. They had an abrupt breakup a few months prior to the start of the book, but they still have this cabin they co-own in Maine. And they have to sell it. So they have to go up to the cabin for one weekend to clean it out, and it’ll sever the last link between them and the relationship will finally be over. But then there’s a massive snowstorm and they get snowed in. So now they’re stuck in this cabin together. There’s, as luck would have it, only one bed.

Jeff: It’s all they needed.

A.J.: Yeah. So we get them trying to reconcile what went wrong with the relationship, rekindling that flame and saying, oh, is this like for real? Or will all this go away once we leave the mountain? I don’t know. Matt, am I leaving anything out?

Matt: No. Usually when I write a book, I’m the worst critic. I think my books are horrible and it’s only when people start reading them and giving me feedback that I’m like, okay, well maybe that is a good book. Like maybe I did write a good book. But this book, probably because I didn’t write it all by myself. I love this book. Like from the get go. I don’t need anyone to tell me that they love it. I love it. And that’s never happened to me with any book that I’ve written before. And it’s because I didn’t write it by myself. It’s the only thing I can think of. But I love this book. I think it’s so funny, because A.J.’s funny. And I think even… I mean, I’m funny and I…

A.J.: He is funny.

Matt: You pushed me to be funnier. I was like, okay, I gotta bring the jokes, I gotta make this funny. This is A.J. He’s hilarious. I can’t just be like a little funny. And it’s sweet too cause that’s what I like to do. I like to mix that sweet and funny. And then also it’s very spicy too.

A.J.: Also what I loved about it is that when you co write a book, it’s like there’s part of the book that you’re discovering for the first time as a reader, even though you’re also writing it. There are scenes between Marsh and Data that are really sweet, like these really tender scenes that Matt wrote. And I’m just like, wow, like that’s really good. It was very touching and usually, because when you’re writing a book and you’re in it, you’re not thinking about having that emotional response. But I was able to have that emotional response to these characters since part of it I was reading as a reader.

Jeff: Where did Marsh and Data come from? Cause you talked about wanting to do something with two plus size characters, but then you gave them these very distinct opposite personalities. Like I personally would like to read their prequel, how they got together in the first place. But where did they come from?

Matt: I don’t remember. Do you? I do remember… this part I remember. It was my idea to give them the same name because number one, that happens with people who are of the same gender. I mean, I suppose it could happen with even… cause there’s some gender neutral names or whatever. So it could be that.

People can date someone with the same name, but you never see that in books or TV or movies because it’s complicated, which we learned once we’ve made the leap to do it. We’re like, oh shit. They have the same name. And so then A.J. was like, we have to give them nicknames and they have to be very different nicknames.

But I don’t remember how we thought of… I think part of them having the same name too was like, they have to be really different characters as well. Like the characters… and A.J.’s so funny. So he was like, I wanna write someone who’s like really funny and tells a lot of jokes.

A.J.: We each took a character and we wrote up a backstory for them. And then we showed it to each other. I had Marsh and I’m trying to think about why I thought of the comedy route. I’m not sure. I think because I’ve never written a book set in New York City and I think in New York what’s so cool is that there is this big comedy scene, whether it’s standup comedy or it’s improv or it’s theater. Like all these things that I love and makes me wish I could live in New York City cause I would just go to all that all the time. So I think I was very interested in writing a character like that as well. Because I feel like, I don’t really know if you see that a lot in romances because standup comedy isn’t really a romantic type of occupation. I think Matt, didn’t you wanna make Data an accountant because of my husband?

Matt: Yeah. It was like, again, something that’s a foil to a comic, and so we’re, like, okay, someone who’s… I mean no shade to accountants, but if you think about what an accountant does, it feels like something that’s kind of anal, no pun intended.

You’re like crunching numbers and it’s very serious. And I do remember when we kind of came up with that, I was like, oh, I don’t wanna write that. That doesn’t sound like… that’s not me. But then I ended up having so much… I always have the most fun when I write the characters who aren’t like me. And we did have to ask A.J.’s husband for some things because I don’t know anything about accounting, or being an accountant, or money or anything like that. And A.J. was like… all the like accounting terms came from him.

A.J.: Yeah, all those years of my husband talking to me about his work and me like trying to listen and trying to understand.

Jeff: It paid off in this book.

A.J.: Yeah. There’s something in accounting called like a flux analysis, and it just makes me think of a flux capacitor.

Matt: Totally.

Jeff: Yeah. Just you saying that. I’m like, well, “Back to the Future” that’s exactly what it is.

And I love how you had that connection there. And A.J. your books always have that thread of funny and now you’ve written a comedian. I loved like the repeat of “the thing you need to know about Data is dot, dot, dot.”

A.J.: The way I came up with that is that starting a book is very scary. And so it’s like I had that line. I was like, okay, that could be a crutch cause I don’t know how to start these chapters. I’ll try and use that. And the idea came to me. And so it it helped me with getting into writing cause as writers know, the blank page is the hardest part. So if you have a sentence or something, then you can just go from there. So that helped me with writing this book and I think that’ll be a fun motif to have for each of his chapters and have it weave into how it’s part of his routine.

Matt: It feels very like something that a standup comic would say,

Jeff: I think the million dollar question for the book is though, why Mallomars?

A.J.: That’s a good… I’m gonna give that to Matt because Matt is the one who came up with Mallomars.

Matt: I came up with that. So it’s very… my impression as I think about it and talk to people, Mallomars is like a very New York City Jewish thing. It’s like very… it’s like bagels, right? Or black and white cookies is another one. There’s certain things that are just very New York City Jew coded and Mallomars is one of them.

I’m not like the biggest Mallomar fan. Like I do… I mean, I’ll eat a Mallomar, don’t get me wrong. But I’m not like obsessed with them or anything. But I learned a lot about them as I was researching them for the book. A lot of the stuff I learned, didn’t even go into the book. I just wanted to know about them.

Did you know that you can only buy them certain months of the year? Because I didn’t know I that. Because of the delicacy of the chocolate and how it will melt in transit, they only sell them, I think it’s from like October through April. So if you go to the store in the summertime, you can’t buy them, which is true because I tried to get some for research and I couldn’t find any.

But I just… One thing that I love doing in my books, and I have found that readers love it, is if you have something that’s a special thing, a special item, a special… I don’t want to call it magical because we’re not writing a fantasy, but it… there’s like something in the book that has some kind of allure that transcends the whole book. It goes between the characters.

Not to call back my own books, but like “Teacher of the Year” there’s like that cherry ChapStick that’s like a whole thing. Like, right, people know all about the ChapStick. So I wanted something that these two guys bonded over that was really important to them. And I wanted it to be food because part of what A.J. and I talked about with writing these bigger, plus size characters was we wanted to celebrate food and eating. These aren’t guys who are like dieting or like counting carbs or any of that stuff. So I wanted something that was almost like a celebratory food. And so to me that would be like a cookie, something sweet. And also because the book is called “Marshmallow Mountain,” I wanted to be a food that had a marshmallow in it. And so that’s how we got to Mallomars.

Jeff: Well now I know why. You see, we’re recording this in August and it’s not coming out until November, so it’s still summertime, and it helps me to understand why I’m looking for Mallomars. Maybe I can’t get them in California anyway, but I…

Matt: No, you can just not now.

Jeff: …understand why they’re not on my shelves currently.

Matt: Check back I think it said October, starting in like October, they will ship them. And then they’re on the shelf for… and the reason that I wanted to know that was our book takes place in the winter, so it works. But otherwise there’d be somebody who would know that and say they can’t have Mallomars, and all of that, so.

Jeff: So yeah, by the time this airs, I’ll have gone looking for Mallomars again. See if I can find them.

A.J.: You need to stitch in your reaction from like November, before this airs. It’s hi, this is Jeff from the future and I’ve had Mallomars, I’ve tasted them. They’re amazing. Okay, back to the show.

Jeff: I know they’re good cause I remember them from the past. But now, after I’ve read this whole book that has Mallomars in it, I’d kinda like to have a Mallomar now and couldn’t do it. And at least now I know why it’s not a California thing at the time of year thing.

I love the forced proximity here and you really use that to such amazing effect. I mean, you talked about it being the middle of the book and I feel like probably 80-ish percent of the book is just them. It’s like you’ve created this theater piece almost of two actors on a stage and here we go. Even taking away their ability to contact the outside world for very realistic reasons. It didn’t feel forced at all.

But how was that for you as writers to be, I have to keep them here and they can’t call their friends, they can’t get to town and you’re just there. Did that cause an angst at all or was this like also maybe the best thing ever because you only had to think about them.

A.J.: We definitely wrote ourselves into a corner. And as you see in the book that there are moments where you get some cell reception or they are able to go to the general store. So you know, there are those bits where they are able to connect with the outside world here and there.

But it definitely was a challenge that we didn’t realize until we were into the book. Oh yeah, we’ve written these characters that are snowed in and they’re snowed in together. But I think a benefit was that it really allowed us to explore their relationship and really dig into what happened between them. And how these people who seem so different, how they are so similar and how there are still issues that they are still working out. But they do still deeply care for each other.

It is that tension about… when you break up with someone, it’s I like I was with you for… I think Data says in the book I was with you for a third of my life. That’s like substantial time. And how do you reconcile that with, okay, well, I still care about this person, but we’re not together. But then also I think what I loved about the setup as well is that it’s a small cabin and we really tried to make sure that there are moments in the book where you’re like, okay, they’re having to squeeze around each other. They’re having to… it’s a tight space and I think that can just add to the forced proximity. It just adds the raising of the sexual tension because you’re snowed in in a cabin with your ex and you keep accidentally touching them. And that can just really amp up the unresolved sexual tension.

Jeff: I really liked, because it was second chance, you played into that amazing with them too cause they have all of this stuff of their life that they’re revisiting cause they’re packing it up or throwing it away or whatever that is. How did you pick the, elements to… we’re gonna examine this thing and this thing? Cause one of the things I liked a lot was when we got into the woodworking aspect and resurfacing those figures that Data had created.

Matt: How did we do? Well, one thing that is kind of funny, not really funny, but maybe, I don’t know. When we were writing this book, I was moving. I was packing and moving myself. I’m in a new place. I know it looks like the old place, but it’s not. I’m in a new place. And so, packing is, I don’t know, it’s like a weird thing. It a hundred percent sucks and unpacking also sucks. As I literally threw these books on the bookshelf. I will never be the person on social media who has color coded shelves. They’re literally just thrown up there. I’m like, whatever.

But when you pack, it’s every time you look at something, you think about, where did I get this? What’s the meaning behind this? And to some degree, at least for me, when I’m packing, do I want this? Is this something that I wanna keep? Or is this something I can get rid of? And so the idea of them packing really played into them revisiting their relationship and having everything that they have, they got it together. Or most of the things. So I don’t know how we picked all those, like little items, I think.

A.J.: And the thing is, I mean, what’s so great is that everything in that cabin is connected to a memory. Like when you think about when you live with someone, every little thing, there’s a memory attached to about how you got it or a conversation about it. Every little object in your house, 99.9% of them, it is connected to some memory with the person that you live with.

So I think that’s a really easy way to explore that. Oh, books on the bookshelf or picture frames or woodworking or an old notebook of jokes. Or oh, those skis that you bought one time because you swore you’re gonna be skiers. And that just didn’t work out. Or those things, Data is into antiquing, so, oh, this tea set that he just had to have that they haven’t used. So all these little things. It was able to really build that shorthand between the characters about their whole relationship can just be summed up with all these little objects and memorabilia around the cabin.

Jeff: So I love finding out about people’s favorite scenes. And if your game for this one, I’d love to know a favorite scene that the other person wrote that you like a lot.

Matt: That’s easy for me. My favorite scene that A.J. wrote, I think, I mean, it’s the one that comes to my head first, so I’m just gonna say it, is the first scene with Marsh and Preeti, who’s like his standup comic BFF. And I laughed so hard at that scene because now you have not one, but you have two standup comics, like basically just barbing back and forth. It was like a fencing match with jokes and I just thought it was hilarious.

I mean, we end up, I think we did ended up like tweaking some of the jokes or there were certain things, but generally speaking it was so funny. And like the whole “see you next Tuesday.” I just love that scene and I love that character too. Like I really, really love her. I’m hoping we can put her in another book cause I just love her and I think people are gonna love her.

A.J.: And the scene of Matt’s I love is that… it’s towards the end. It’s Marsh and Data, they’re having like a tender moment together over a pen. It’s a scene with the pen that Data’s mom gave him, and he’s talking about that. It was just like this like sweet scene, like this really sweet, tender scene between the two of them. I was very touched by it. I really just think, oh my God. These guys, I just really care about them and I think that’s just something Matt does well just makes you really care about these characters so much. Like whereas I…

Matt: I think in his comment he said, if I had a heart…

A.J.: Yeah.

Matt: It would be… I can’t remember the rest of it, but that’s how your comment started.

A.J.: Yeah, because I tend in my books, even though my books do have emotions, they tend to be couched within jokes. And, sarcasm is my love language. And Matt isn’t afraid to go for those big emotions. And so it was very touching to read that scene between them. So Data has his like walls come down a little bit and reveal the side of himself that he hadn’t shown to Marsh.

And I think that was a fun thing also with the characters where these guys have known each other for a number of years. They were together for a number of years, but there are still like secrets and are still sides of them they were too afraid to show the other person. And this is like the weekend where they’re finally really bearing everything.

Jeff: So you didn’t intend for this to be a series, but now it’s a series. Can you tease us anything about what’s gonna be coming next in “Big Boys Small Spaces?”

Matt: We have the second book already planned. So Bryce, who is one of the side characters in this book, who lives in the building that Marsh and Data live in in New York City. He’s also a bigger guy and he’s a dancer. He’s like trying to make it on Broadway as a dancer. But not having a lot of luck. He will be the one of the main characters in the second book. And I don’t know how much more should I say about it? Like we have the whole book.

Jeff: Everything that you wanna say.

A.J.: Yeah, so again, like the theme of the series is two guys in a more confined space. So in this one it’s him and a new roommate. A guy moves in and they’re forced to be roommates together, and it’s a small one bedroom apartment. It’s them and then Bryce’s adorable dog who you’ll fall in love with.

Matt: He’s in this book too. He’s in “Marshmallow Mountain.” The Burmese mountain dog.

A.J.: Yeah. So it’s like the two of them having to make it work in this small New York City apartment. And again, Bryce is a dancer. the other character, he is more of the stuffy kind of academic type. So it’s very opposites attract as well. And yeah, it’s about how they learn to live together and then that turns into something more romantic and spicier.

And we are thinking too, cause there’s a lot of New York set romcoms that we just love and like that energy of a Nora Ephron or those types of things. So I think that’s something we’re really trying to have come through in this book. Like a Nora Ephron and Neil Simon kind of energy. So really we want it to be a very New Yorky type book.

Jeff: Awesome. I look forward to that. Any thoughts on when it might come out?

A.J.: Fall 2025. I think we’re targeting October.

Matt: A year from this one coming out.

Jeff: Cool. Something to look forward to already for 2025.

A.J.: Yeah.

Jeff: Speaking of upcoming projects, what are both of you working on solo these days that we should also be looking for as we move into the end of this year and into next?

A.J.: I’ll let Matt go first cause he has the more upcoming release.

Matt: So my next solo book is the final book in my “Teachers in Love” series which is called “Husband of the Year,” which is kind of a sequel to “Teacher of the Year,” but also it’s the bow on the end of the whole series. And it’s coming out in February of next year. Unless something changes, which I don’t think it will. But you never know, like things can happen. That’s the plan for February of next year.

I’m actually working on it as we speak. I’m deep in revisions. So it’s cute, it’s Marvin and Olin getting married, but then I bring everybody back. Sheldon, who was in “Mistletoe,” ends up being the wedding planner and Vincent and Kent and all the folks come back. And it’s been kind of emotional for me to write this book and, I don’t know if it’s because I’m so into these characters. I know them so well or also because it’s the end of the series. And so I’m feeling like all kinds of feelings about it. And also a lot of emotional things are happening in the book, people are getting married and things like that. So, I’ve been crying a lot, which I know A.J. rolls his eyes. He’s oh my god, fucking feelings.

A.J.: I know, I’m like Sarah Michelle Gellar in “Cruel Intentions.” Oh, did the little book you cry.

Matt: Oh, also, can I just say, because people should know this, one of the things that I call A.J. when we were writing is a joke assassin, because sometimes he would write a joke and I’d be like, it’s not quite landing. And then what he would literally do is be like, here’s three more, which one’s the funniest?

And so then I’m like, sometimes they were all funny and it was like, I don’t know, I don’t know. It’s like I have to pick. They’re all funny. But he can just like, boom. He can just give you joke, after joke, after joke, after joke. Sometimes the pop culture references get a little… I’m like, A.J., I don’t know what that is. And I ask five people and none of them know what it’s either. So we… because he knows so much about obscure pop culture.

A.J.: My brain is broken, basically, is the TLDR of that.

Jeff: The pop culture. I mean, I knew most of that had to come from A.J., just from what I know about his books and from our first conversation on the show. But all of them was like, yes, yes, yes., I got all of them that were in the book.

Matt: I wrote some too though. I wrote some of them.

A.J.: I will say one the things that made me really like Matt in the beginning is when I first met him and I started reading “Teacher of the Year,” but then I think five pages of “Teacher of the Year,” he makes a reference to a “Silkwood” shower. And when I saw that I was like, okay, I like him. You can stay.

Matt: And we also, the other thing… I know I’m totally like going back to an old question. The other thing that we did while we were writing that was so fun, it was like, we’re two gay dudes, right? And we would be like, how gay can we make this.

The references… we don’t want… this isn’t like… no shade to them cause they’re very popular and they sell more books than we do, but this isn’t a hockey book, right? This is two really gay guys. So like, how gay can we make it? So we’re like, let’s put a “Into the Woods” reference and just the references got gayer and gayer and gayer. And then we would comment on the other person’s like how gay it was. So it was fun.

Anyway. A.J., what are you working on?

A.J.: So I’m working on a new spinoff series. So for my main books, they’re all set in this fictional town called Sourwood. There’s a series about single dads, a series about the teachers at the high school there. This book, it’s set in that world. It’s a new group but connected to the one from the other series so they may pop in. I don’t wanna give too much away cause I’m still in the first draft mode and as things can change so much, I don’t wanna commit into the podcast history or podcast of record. I don’t wanna commit too much to what it’s about, but I’ll say it is set in the Sourwood universe. It’s 40 something guys. So if you like the “Single Dad’s Club” and you like the found family aspect of that and like that they’re a little bit older, a little more bearish. Then I think you will enjoy this. So hopefully by the time this podcast comes out, I’ll be able to speak more about it. But I’m hoping that this first book will come out sometime in 2025 for the new series as well.

Jeff: Fantastic.

As we wrap it up, we gotta get some recommendations from you both. What are you reading or watching right now that you think our listeners should be checking out?

A.J.: I’m gonna punt this to Matt first while I think about this. Even though I knew this question was coming my brain just goes blank whenever people ask for recommendations.

Matt: I know. Well, so my thing is I don’t read much when I’m in the process of writing because it just… I will do audio books usually, but I can’t look at words when I’m looking at words all the time. It’s just too much.

I will say, I haven’t read it though, so it’s not really a recommendation, but I know I’m gonna love it. Is K Sterling’s new book, Jonathan’s book, I can’t think of the name of the title, but it’s like the last book in that Nanny series that she has.

Jeff: So good.

Matt: And I love all of those books. So I know I’m gonna love this book and I love her.

And what I’m watching, which will be a shock to no one, is “Drag Race.” I just finished the latest “All Stars.” But this week “Global All Stars” starts and one Miss Alyssa Edwards is on. And I am so excited to have her back on my television because I love me some Alyssa Edwards and her back rolls. Back rolls. You don’t know that cause you don’t watch “Drag Race.”

A.J.: I don’t.

Jeff: I don’t either.

Matt: For all your pop culture.

What?

A.J.: I know. I’m not anti-“Drag Race.” I’ve just like never seen it.

Matt: Maybe I’ll make you watch it when you come. A.J.’s coming to visit, actually. By the time this podcast is out, he’ll have already been here.

A.J.: Yeah,

Matt: Maybe we’ll hate each other.

Jeff: I doubt that.

A.J.: That could be.

Okay. Okay. So as for what I’m reading. So I tend to read a lot of different genres. I think it just gives me inspiration and whatnot. So a book that I read this year that I just loved was “Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow” by Gabrielle Zevin. So it’s a romance, but a romance, a platonic romance kind of appropriate for a co-writing relationship. It’s about these two people who they meet in college and they start like developing video games together and it follows them through like the nineties and the two thousands as their friendship goes through ups and downs as their video game business goes through ups and downs with each release. And it’s just this beautiful ode to friendship that is glorious and just such a well written book. So I love that.

I’m trying to think what else I’m reading that I like. I’m dipping my toe into Emily Henry. I know I sound like the most basic person, but I started reading “Happy Place” as well, and that is fantastic. I’m very happy that she lives up to all the hype. She is a fantastic writer. So that’s also on my Kindle as well. And then, I go through like different books at the same time. I’m also reading “Camp Damascus” by Chuck Tingle, which is interesting. It’s like, a horror type thriller. So that, that’s an interesting to read as well.

And then for TV it’s like most people, like you scroll through these apps for 15 minutes, then you wind up watching reruns of your favorite show. That’s what happens to me. So I think I’m probably… this time I’m probably rewatching “Frasier” for the third time.

Matt: Also, there’s an Emily Henry joke in our book.

A.J.: Yes.

Matt: We’re not making fun of her. We love Emily Henry. So when I say it’s a joke, it’s more like a nod to her.

A.J.: So if nothing in this podcast convinced you to read “Marshmallow Mountain,” now you have to read it because there’s Emily Henry reference.

Matt: And you need to find it. And it’s cute. And it wasn’t originally an Emily Henry reference. It was a different author and I think it was me. I was like, we need this to be a romance author. Like, a wink, wink, nudge, nudge to our readers. So I was like, who’s a romance author that everybody has heard of? So we made it Emily Henry.

Jeff: Awesome. How can people keep up with you online to know how everything is coming together for your solo projects, on the new book, all those various things.

A.J.: So, I am on Facebook. I have a Facebook group. So “The Outsiders” is the name of it. You can find me on Instagram at ajtruman_author. I’m currently on TikTok, although by November, who knows if I’ll still be on there. That’s also ajtruman_author.

Matt: And I’m all the same places. I’m on Facebook, I’m on Instagram. I think my Instagram is mawardellauthor. I think, I don’t even know. I think that’s what it is. But also, if you just go to my website, mawardell.com, it has all the places you can find me. I have a Facebook group too. I’m trying to get people to join my Facebook group. It’s so much fun. I forget what it’s called Wardell’s Warriors. Because you have to have a cute name like that.

Jeff: Well, I’m so happy that you two came to talk about “Marshmallow Mountain.” I really can’t wait to read more in that series cause this is so awesome. And just thank you both for coming on and telling us about this and hopefully by now a lot of people have read it cause it’s been out for a little bit. But if they haven’t, they need to go pick it up cause we’re getting into the wintertime. It’s perfect for this book. So thank you both so much and wish you all the success with it.

A.J.: Thank you so much. Thanks for having us.

Wrap-Up

Will: This episode’s transcript has been brought to you by our community on Patreon. If you’d like to read the conversation for yourself, head on over to the show notes page for this episode at biggayfictionpodcast.com.

Jeff: And thanks so much to Matt and A.J. for coming onto the show and talking to us about “Marshmallow Mountain.” I really hope y’all go grab this book. It is so sweet and so funny and so spicy. It’s the perfect book to curl up with this winter.

Hey ChatGPT, what did you think of the discussion of “Marshmallow Mountain?”

ChatGPT: From your interview with Matt and A.J., several things stood out regarding their first-time collaboration on “Marshmallow Mountain.”

First was the origins of their collaboration as they met through social media and developed a friendship through mutual respect for each other’s work in gay romance. A.J. was initially hesitant about co-writing due to concerns over potential conflicts and the time commitment, but Matt’s enthusiasm and the natural chemistry between them ultimately won him over.

Their collaboration began with a desire to write a book featuring two plus-size protagonists, a representation they both felt was underexplored in romance novels. They wanted to create something that was a unique twist for the genre.

They also had to balance their different styles. Matt described himself as more easygoing and A.J. as the more direct, structured partner—their opposing strengths complemented each other. Matt tended to handle pacing, while A.J. focused on structure and maintaining narrative tension.

Meanwhile, both acknowledged the intimacy of co-writing, with Matt humorously recounting how A.J.‘s feedback initially made him nervous. They had to navigate writing for each other in real time, providing feedback directly and learning to embrace each other’s strengths.

Their work also included fun dynamics such as the creation of two characters named Marshall, known as Marsh and Data, whose clashing personalities drive the book’s humor and tension. Matt credited A.J.‘s knack for delivering punchlines, while A.J. praised Matt’s emotional depth in tender moments.

Finally, they teased a second book in the “Big Boys, Small Spaces” series, focusing on Bryce, a dancer, and a new roommate, continuing their theme of two characters confined to a small space.

The conversation underscored their complementary partnership, humor, and shared passion for exploring new themes in gay romance.

Jeff: I really like how Chat focused in on how Matt and A.J. wrote together and their process. That to me, is one of my favorite parts when I’m talking to collaborators, especially first time collaborators, and how they make their differing processes and styles all mesh together into a great product.

Will: All right, I think that’ll do it for now. Coming up next on Monday, November 18th, we’re off to the airport with author Jeffrey Davenport.

Jeff: Jeffrey’s latest book is “Meet Me In the Sky,” and it gives us a terrific forced proximity romance set at John F. Kennedy Airport. It’s an unlikely place for a romance, and frankly not somewhere I’d wanna be long enough to have a forced proximity romance, but I tell you, it makes for one great story and we’re gonna talk all about it next episode.

Will: On behalf of Jeff and myself, we wanna thank you so much for listening, and we hope that you’ll join us again soon for more discussions about the kinds of stories we all love, the big gay fiction kind. Until then, keep turning those pages and keep reading.

Big Gay Fiction Podcast is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. Find more shows you’ll love at frolic.media/podcasts. Original theme music by Daryl Banner.

 

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